Tuesday, December 7, 2010

Kersey Graves Debunked-The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors

The following two study videos I recently completed briefly examine and refute the central ideas found in Graves' book:


Footnotes:
1) Carrier article on Graves:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/graves.html
2) http://www.kingdavid8.com/Copycat/JesusZulis.html
3) http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/crite.html
4) The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literature Volume 36, p 262
"The name S(S)iduri cannot be separated from Sirtur (Ze-ir-tu-ur, Sir-du), mother of Tammuz; the first r has been dropped by dissimilation. Unfortunately we know nothing directly about this divinity except her name."
5) http://www.gsbkerala.com/panduranga.htm
6) This gentleman (who is a pagan himself) has the most extensive and one of the only meritorious websites on the web that is devoted to this god. As such he has received emails asking about Esus being a prototype for Jesus and scoffs at such notions (he has a page refuting such pretentions):
http://www.chronarchy.com/esus/aboutesus.html
7) These come from the Historia de los Mexicanos por sus pituras [post-conquest codex written in the 1530s] and Anal de Cuauahtitlan and leyenda de las soles. Etymology of xochiquetzal:
http://www.behindthename.com/name/xochiquetzal
8) Encyclopedia entry on Indra:
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/i/indra.html
9) http://www.reference.com/browse/Alcestis
10) Barry B. Powell Classical Myth, 247-248.
The birth from Zeus' semen is a less common version in most it is from Adgistis' semen and blood.
11) http://varnam.org/blog/2004/09/lord_krishna_lived_for_125_yea/
12) Tammuz is the Hebrew and Aramaic pronunciation that is popularized by it's use in the Old Testament where God is abhorred with his worship. Dummuzi is the (more) original Sumerian pronunciation of the god.
13) You can read an online translation of the courtship of Ianna and Dummuzi here: http://www.piney.com/BabCourship.html
14) Our earliest text on Esus is the post-Christian Lucan (Pharsalia I, 422-465). He talks about human sacrifices offered to the god in his Bellum civile
15) Hesiod, Theogony 507ff
16) http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/alcestis.html
17) Barry B. Powell Classical Myth, 247-248
18) Edwin M. Yamauchi, "Easter-Myth, Hallucination, or History? First of Two parts", 5
19) "Those who seek to adduce Mithra as a prototype of the risen Christ ignore the late date for the expansion of Mithraism to the west."
Yamauchi quoted by Lee Strobel, The Case for the Real Jesus,168-169
"We have almost no evidence of Mithraism in the sense of a mystery religion in the West until very late-too late to have influenced the beginnings of Christianity...The earliest Mithraea are dated to the early second century. There are a handful of inscriptions that date to the early second century, but the vast majority of texts date are dated after A.D. 140. Most of what we have as evidence of Mithraism comes in the second, third and fourth centuries A.D...That's... what's wrong with...theories about Mithraism influencing the beginnings of Christianity"
20) Ibid. Strobel, 169.
21) Encyclopedia of Religion, Second Edition, vol 9, Lindsay Jones Editor and Chief (2005 Thompson Gale), 6091.
22) Manfred Clauss, The Roman Cult of Mithras, 62-63.
23) Personal email correspondence that took place on 10/14/10.
24) Personal email correspondence that took place on 10/13/2010.
25) Article by Carrier: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/graves.html
26) Barry B. Powell, Classical Myth, 238-41
27) Ovid, Metamorphoses 10.708-39
28) Edwin M. Yamauchi, "Easter-Myth, Hallucination, or History". Christianity Today (March 15, 1974).,4
See also: http://jss.oxfordjournals.org/content/XI/1/10.extract
"In the case of the Mesopotamian Tammuz (Sumerian Dumuzi), his alleged resurrection by the goddess Inanna-Ishtar had been assumed even though the end of both the Sumerian and the Akkadian texts of the myth of "the Descent of Inanna (Ishtar)" had not been preserved. Professor S. N. Kramer in 1960 published a new poem, "The Death of Dumuzi," that proves conclusively that instead of rescuing Dumuzi from the Underworld, Inanna sent him there as her substitute." "This gives us the irrefutable evidence for the death of Tammuz and the necessity for him to remain dead"
"Tammuz was identified by later writers with the Phoenician Adonis, the beautiful youth beloved of Aphrodite...P. Lambrechts has shown that there is no trace of a resurrection in the early texts or pictorial representations of Adonis."
29) Quoted by Michael Licona in his article refuting Acharya S.: http://www.risenjesus.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=14:a-refutation-of-acharya-ss-book-the-christ-conspiracy-&catid=4:articles&Itemid=19
30) Kersey Graves, The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors, 122
31) Ibid Powell, 625. See also Plutarch, Life of Numa Pompilius.
32) Ibid. Encyclopedia of religion, 7420
33) Play here: http://classics.uc.edu/~johnson/tragedy/summaries/alcestis.html
34) Reward at Kingdavid8.com under "Christ Myther Challenge" and Zeitgeistchallenge.com (totals as of now to 2000$).
35) Ibid., Powell, 247.
36) Ibid., Yamauchi "Easter",5.
37) Ibid., The Case for the Real Jesus, 169.
38) Richard Gordan, Greco-Roman World, (1996), 96.

15 comments:

  1. What Challenge This Is Propaganda Jesus Never Said I am God Worship me as the son of god. I offer you or anyone a Challenge or anyone else who can give me one bible quote where Jesus said he was god or worship him. Not Paul but Jesus the story of Jesus being the Son of God like many stories where stolen and changed. You cant prove a lie Jesus never told the Disciples to worship him. He said the opposite no man is worthy of worship but the father. The close quote any one can find was in Matthews where he say's I and my father are one. Even that was mis quoted he was saying I am one with my father my father is with me.

    ReplyDelete
  2. I have written an article exegeting the deity of Christ in three passages here:
    http://keithtruth.com/the_deity_of_christ_in_john_titus.html

    In John 8:58 Jesus calls himself "ego eimi" and the Jews respond by attempting to stone him for "making himself equal with God." As far as worship I can think of about 20 examples. The following should suffice:

    Isaiah 42:8:
    "I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images."

    Revelation 5:
    "Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang:
    “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”
    Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
    “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
    be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "In John 8:58 Jesus calls himself "ego eimi" "

      hmm...
      so what? I AM...or are you trying to stun the semi-literate with a truncated sentence in Greek...
      Besides, what about the other guy who's performing the same exercise to show how Buddha, or Krishna or Nandi were divine...
      Oh, yea...human beings need beliefs...fair...beliefs, exactly.

      Delete
  3. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Ecclesiastes chapter 1 verse 8
    He who increase Knowledge will also increase sorrow. Don't run from the truth Ben.

    The most high gave you a mind to think why would you except belief.

    Jesus Never Said I am God Worship me as the son of god. I offer you or anyone a Challenge or anyone else who can give me one bible quote where Jesus said he was god or worship him.

    Not Paul but Jesus the story of Jesus being the Son of God like many stories where stolen and changed you have already exposed many of these frauds.

    You cant prove a lie Jesus never told the Disciples to worship him. He said the opposite no man is worthy of worship but the father. 80 percent of whats in the new testament is not the words of Jesus Christ over 300 christian scholars from different denominations have all confirmed this. This is why I asked you to get the Red letter Bible. The only quote you will find is in Revelation and revelation was someones dream it does not even hide that.

    The real Christ while he walked this earth never told anyone he was god or to worship him. Jesus was the Messiah he would not lie. When asked how Jesus got the power to do all of the things he did he tells you where not Paul he said it in his on words. He said and I quote(All power is not mine but is given un to me) he is telling them I'm not God.

    He continues (I of my own self can do nothing but only what my father commands me.) When you are equal to someone or part of a divine trinity you are not commanded.

    When he taught the disciples how to pray he only ask to be kept in their prayers. That's why we close every player with in Jesus Christ name we pray. You more than anybody know the corruption of the Romans and what they did at that council.

    Why Constantine invaded Kemet and started changing stuff. Brother wake up please the devil is a lie I know you know this. I spent two years researching Constantine he is corrupt capitalist the Hitler of his error. Who wasn't even a Christian they tried to baptize him as one on his death bed and change the story. He betrayed his sister Constantinya he never cared about the story of Christ he set out to do one thing concur Rome and install a New World Religion. Sounds allot like what Bush and Obama are talking about a New World Order. The Bible Describes Rome as the worst the head of the beast why have we been brain washed to think the most high wanted his book written here. Follow My Videos Do Your Research I will show you the truth. About the Moors and Mason and the so called Illuminati. The Keepers of the truth of right knowledge. You know the quote you wrestle not against men of flesh.... I will show you the meaning of this quote and why Constantine had the book of Enoch taken out.. Why they pump florid into your water and the secrets that Nasa is covering up..

    Live Free Ben you where made in the image of God so inside you is the power to manifest through prayer and thought. Connect to your Pineal Gland and seek wisdom.. Ecclesiastes chapter 1 verse 8 I found the truth and I was sad when I learned it everything I was taught from the time that I was born was a lie to keep me cut of from the creator and locked in this slavery that we call reality..

    ReplyDelete
  5. This will be my last message as it is clear you are programmed and care nothing for right knowledge. I'm saying Jesus so you can understand me but we both know there was no man name Jesus in the bible. The North African Hebrew who studied in Kemet they doctored the stories.

    You have not produced one document or quote to support your claim. Mis quoting text and alluding to different quotes is not fact. Christ was the Messiah and he never told the disciples he was the son of god and worship him.

    To paint Constantine as being Holly is wrong. To take stories out of the Cannon is wrong had nothing to do with the writings of Joesephus.

    The Book of Enoch The Gospel Of Judas The List Goes On It's Called Editing.. Constantine invaded Kemet and murdered thousands.

    He wanted a New World Religion not peace and freedom. As far as me getting my information from Youtube is funny.

    I studied under Dr Kwasi, Dr Africa, Dr Horowiz, Brother Khalid and many many more.. I conducted my own research as well. You call me a youtube student but you think Peter Joseph or Jordan Maxwell or some Luciferian Group came up with Astronomy lol... When he documents predating all of it. You are ignorant because you program your self to one discipline.

    You really need to know who the Moors are you are out of your league this is basic science.

    Research the Miens and a man name Benjamin Banker..

    ReplyDelete
  6. You are saying ignorant things how can someone with pockets of knowledge and research blind their self to the truth. Your running from the truth. I prayed for you the other night that the most high grants you wisdom and for you not to be ashamed of it when you find it..

    The book of Enoch is quoted in the bible in the book of Jude and by the half brother of Jesus so to speak. What are you talking about? anything that they did not understand they took out or said God sounds to angry here lets take this out leave this editing...

    These where corrupt men the most high did not assemble this council. I'm not saying that the bible is you know what Luke said you know how the bible describes the Roman empire Constantine was Rome.

    The fraud story of the cross, if you research how the Roamns hung people you know there was no cross. This is common knowledge I know you know these things..

    So what are you really ashamed of Ben aka 52 blades .. Is it the fact that we now know through science that the original Hebrew people where people of African descent and color..

    Why because we know that the pope had to Michelangelo paint Jesus from black to white.
    Why because Science and Scientist have proved that their where people here 100 of thousands of year before the bible was even written.

    So we know these stories came from some where. Why because the first European in history to write anything told the truth. That the origins of Greek and roman history come from Kosh and Ethiopia...

    What the Moors did was wrong I understand that. They gave rise to all this evil we see in the world.

    But we are still brothers not by nature but by the most highs law..

    And we honor and respect All-law not Allah but All-Law...

    Seek the truth...

    ReplyDelete
  7. My article is formally documented. I cited the biblical texts I used (the Greek can be found online). The rest I stated about Constantine can be found in Roger Olsen's History of Christian Theology. Astrology, I did not claim, is a modern invention. Chris White said this in regards to Astrotheology; which finds modern origin in theosophy. The books you mention (the Gospel of Judas was written by a gnostic group of luciferians who considered YHWH to be an evil demiurge in the third century.) are not listed as inspired in the early orthodox canons of the church for good honest reasons (indeed, Irenaeus refutes the GOJ and the like in his Against Heresies). There were no councils or emperors arbitrating the Christian canon; it was decided naturally among early congregations. As for the BOE: considering it is falsely attributed to the personage and was obviously written long after he lived I'm not sure why you jump to make it scripture. If you think we should canonize it merely because Jude paraphrases it then you should likewise canonize the pagan poets quoted on Mars Hill. As for crucifixion not being performed on a cross as the gospels describe: there is a 2,000 gent named Yohanan Ben Ha'galgol who begs to differ (regardless of whatever Watch Tower literature you've been reading).

    ReplyDelete
  8. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Psalm 62:1 My soul finds rest in God alone; my salvation comes from him.
    We don't follow Greek worship. Everything about the Greek culture writings and religion was stolen copied and changed from ancient Kemet. That is fact one.

    Fact two I told you while Jesus which was not his real name but changed like many things in the bible to cover up his African Hebrew origins. Jesus while he walked this earth never once told anybody that he is god and worship him as the son of god that is a fact.

    You will never find a bible quote to support your theory because he never said it. Saul aka Paul was also a corrupt man he laid the foundation for the new testament and never once consulted with any of disciples who where all still alive at the time.

    The bible call the real Jesus out of Kemet re read the story of Joseph..

    The dieing on the cross story is also made up and can be proved by studying ancient Rome they did not hang people on cross..

    But lets be real I looked at your work I have challenged you and James White to a online debate. I don't think it's about error anymore I think you and him know this information this truth and you search to find ways to dispute or cover up the truth.

    That's why all your information is selected. You don't care anything about the people or right knowledge..

    I will make one more video debating you and Dr James hopefully you 2 have the courage to debate me..

    Stay blessed

    ReplyDelete
  10. This is for "Lean The Truth"

    John 11:4 Jesus called Himself the Son of God. John 16:23-24 Jesus commanded His disciples to pray in His name.

    If you come to the Bible making demands about what it MUST say in order for such and such to be true then that only shows that you're always going to manipulate the text to reveal your own biases. I'm sure you will try to escape, reinterpret, or otherwise discredit the book of John before you'll accept the fact that Jesus claimed divinity and commanded worship of His followers....the passages are above.

    ReplyDelete
  11. I especially love Livy's passage on Quirinus (Romulus in his earthly life):"Mars, she declared, was their father – perhaps she believed it, perhaps she was merely hoping by the pretence to palliate her guilt.".

    Why shouldn't we apply the same to Jesus?
    If we cannot apply it to Jesus, what about Buddha or the many other saviors, heroes and prophets , whose pregnancy was prodigious.
    Note I didn't say "virgin birth" as Buddha was allegedly born from his mother's side...and she was married...much as queen Olympias (Alexander's mother) was... but I am sure you might retort that Buddha possibly never existed as -you say- many quote disparate timelines as Buddha's.
    So should we apply Livy's treatment to Jesus, too? After all, mythology teems with savior-heroes, whose paternity was either disputed or dubious.
    Yes? No?
    Oh, wait...there is a papyrus telling me someone met Jesus, and a clay tablet telling me they read the papyrus and it's all true.
    Why not Quirinus, then?
    How many scrolls talk about Zeus or Asclepius? Epidaurus teems with dedications of gratitude to Aesculapius so he must have existed, right?...no wait...placebo effect, right?
    After all, Romans named themselves Quirites after Romulus...no wait...you're going to tell me it's one of those mythological things going psychotic, like Saddam Hussein laying claim to Mesopotamia or something...

    *BUT* I do appreciate you at least try to add footnotes and to document your stuff.

    ReplyDelete
  12. ALSO:
    regarding the virgin birth:
    "Zoroaster's followers, holding ardently to this expectation, came to believe that the Saoshyant will be born of the prophet's own seed, miraculously preserved in the depths of a lake (identified as Lake Katsaoya). When the end of time approaches, it is said, a virgin will bathe in this lake and become with child by the prophet; and she will in due course bear a son, named Astvat-ereta, 'He who embodies righteousness' (after Zoroaster's own words : 'May righteousness be embodied' Y 43. r6). (Boyce 1979:42).".
    ancient historiographers such as Diogenes Laertius (III century CE) and Pliny the Elder (I century) located Zoroaster between the year 6200 and 6400 BCE. Scholarly dates differ between XVIII and VI century BCE.

    So...is this true? Or did the devil imitate the prophecy another time? The human psyche digs all this trash about virgins and unnatural pregnancies and heroes, whose paternity is disputed or mysterious, and the deliverance of the virgin and some more bunkum...that's why you find the same tripe in Star Wars, too...

    Oh yes, and the call (enlightenment, ministry...) at around the age of 30...Buddha and Zoroaster, too, but I am sure there is a clay tablet that says they are just literary creations, unlike "true Jesus" who was every single bit as good as the book says.
    What about the followers of other Abrahamic religions (Islam, Judaism, Mormonism...)?
    Well, Mormons call themselves Christians also, but I have a hunch that's not what you're looking for...

    ReplyDelete
  13. A lie will only be perpetuated so long as it serves the self-serving motives of the liar. The disciples of Yeshua were all martyred for their beliefs. Now, for Yeshua to be willing to die for those who are cursed, condemned, and were/are calling for His death, he would fit into one of 3 categories, LIAR, LUNATIC, or LORD. If He died believing a lie then that would make Him a lunatic, especially when claimed equality with God the Father and claimed He had the power to give and sustain life. He backed up every one of His claims. And History has it recorded. "
    No bones, no body, with a heavily guarded tomb and a bunch of petrified followers came and stole the body, yeah right..."
    However He supported His claims by doing everything He that only God was acclaimed to have been able to do, including forgiving sins. At the point of His death He could have easily saved His life by renouncing the lies and claims and been set free. The same is true for the disciples.
    Prof. Graves being of Quaker origin could have easily been abused mentally as child as a result of deprivation for things he may have lusted after in the natural childish sense. His writings clearly indicates he was angry at his parents religious beliefs and hence angry at a "God" he did not want to accept for whatever experience or experiences he may have endured growing up.
    As Ben clearly pointed out, and having read his book, in this modern era, research is easier to conduct and hence because of his unsubstantiated and supported writings, it boils down to mere opinion and not fact. The yearning "hater of God" would gravitate to anything of this kind in order to feel justified about themselves and justify hating those who express a faith in YHVH (Yahweh) and His Son Yeshua.
    What amuses me is the vehement way in which "so called, self-acclaimed atheists" (don't believe they exist, cause the Bible uses the word "fool" or "nabal" rebel to describe such), dogmatically rant and rave over things that they vomit as non-existent, irrelevant, and empty, namely religious faith.
    If Christians are wrong about their beliefs, then the most they stand to lose is living a life that is morally and ethically upright (missing the chance to enjoy immorality and sin for season), and upon death, it is the end (no life after death). However, if they are correct, then the believer has everything to gain, and the unbeliever has lost everything.
    Now that is a gamble that can cost anyone their very soul for an eternity, and that is price far more than silver or gold.

    ReplyDelete
  14. A lie will only be perpetuated so long as it serves the self-serving motives of the liar. The disciples of Yeshua were all martyred for their beliefs. Now, for Yeshua to be willing to die for those who are cursed, condemned, and were/are calling for His death, he would fit into one of 3 categories, LIAR, LUNATIC, or LORD. If He died believing a lie then that would make Him a lunatic, especially when claimed equality with God the Father and claimed He had the power to give and sustain life. He backed up every one of His claims. And History has it recorded. "
    No bones, no body, with a heavily guarded tomb and a bunch of petrified followers came and stole the body, yeah right..."
    However He supported His claims by doing everything He that only God was acclaimed to have been able to do, including forgiving sins. At the point of His death He could have easily saved His life by renouncing the lies and claims and been set free. The same is true for the disciples.
    Prof. Graves being of Quaker origin could have easily been abused mentally as child as a result of deprivation for things he may have lusted after in the natural childish sense. His writings clearly indicates he was angry at his parents religious beliefs and hence angry at a "God" he did not want to accept for whatever experience or experiences he may have endured growing up.
    As Ben clearly pointed out, and having read his book, in this modern era, research is easier to conduct and hence because of his unsubstantiated and supported writings, it boils down to mere opinion and not fact. The yearning "hater of God" would gravitate to anything of this kind in order to feel justified about themselves and justify hating those who express a faith in YHVH (Yahweh) and His Son Yeshua.
    What amuses me is the vehement way in which "so called, self-acclaimed atheists" (don't believe they exist, cause the Bible uses the word "fool" or "nabal" rebel to describe such), dogmatically rant and rave over things that they vomit as non-existent, irrelevant, and empty, namely religious faith.
    If Christians are wrong about their beliefs, then the most they stand to lose is living a life that is morally and ethically upright (missing the chance to enjoy immorality and sin for season), and upon death, it is the end (no life after death). However, if they are correct, then the believer has everything to gain, and the unbeliever has lost everything.
    Now that is a gamble that can cost anyone their very soul for an eternity, and that is price far more than silver or gold.

    ReplyDelete